Terence Hope Posted June 12, 2015 Share some insight as to why I posted this question. I have been on LCHF for 3 years now, lighter than I have ever been, and faster on the bike than I have ever been (first 6 months were terrible though, but once your body learns how to utilise an alternative energy source, wow), but im wanting to know if I train fuelled as opposed to fasted as I have been for the past 3 years, would this increase my performance during racing? I quite easily go out for a 3h30 to 4hr ride at 85%HR on only water, no issues. Race pace, 3 hours on water, if I need to push over 3 hours, BCAA's and caffeine. I want to know if I train on my amino acids and caffeine, will I race quicker? Again, the purpose of this is not to debate LCHF, glycogen utilisation etc, no matter what your diet, do you from a nutritional value mimic your racing routine / nutrition on training rides? So do you train using GU's, or is this race day only? Do you train using 'racefood' or is this race day only, and what do you think the benefits are of using these for training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaBee Posted June 12, 2015 Share There's a significant difference between "riding with water" and "fasted training"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Hope Posted June 12, 2015 Share There's a significant difference between "riding with water" and "fasted training"... Thanks, well aware, let me clarify, I eat at 7pm , sleep at 10pm , I wake up, eat nothing, ride , drink water , ride some more , get home and eat around 4-5 hours later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombeej Posted June 12, 2015 Share some insight as to why I posted this question. I have been on LCHF for 3 years now, lighter than I have ever been, and faster on the bike than I have ever been (first 6 months were terrible though, but once your body learns how to utilise an alternative energy source, wow), but im wanting to know if I train fuelled as opposed to fasted as I have been for the past 3 years, would this increase my performance during racing? I quite easily go out for a 3h30 to 4hr ride at 85%HR on only water, no issues. Race pace, 3 hours on water, if I need to push over 3 hours, BCAA's and caffeine. I want to know if I train on my amino acids and caffeine, will I race quicker? Again, the purpose of this is not to debate LCHF, glycogen utilisation etc, no matter what your diet, do you from a nutritional value mimic your racing routine / nutrition on training rides? So do you train using GU's, or is this race day only? Do you train using 'racefood' or is this race day only, and what do you think the benefits are of using these for training? You might have read Peter Attia's research since you come from a LCHF perspective. If not, here's a great place to start - very relevant to this discussion. His research into training on zero carbs shows how it significantly increases your ability to preserve your glycogen stores during strenuous exercise (i.e. become more 'bonk proof'), and raises your VO2max 60% VO2 and AT significantly higher than if you just trained on carbs. However (which is obvious), the results show racing on zero carbs is detrimental. This is backed up in other studies, such as this one (although note the different responses of men vs women). Moral of the story: train on water only as much as possible, but race on carbs. Edit: VO2 correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombeej Posted June 12, 2015 Share Thanks, well aware, let me clarify, I eat at 7pm , sleep at 10pm , I wake up, eat nothing, ride , drink water , ride some more , get home and eat around 4-5 hours later. Correct. Training on water only and fasted training overlap, but not 100% the same thing. If I train on water only in the evenings, I'm not in a fasted state because I've been eating all day. But if I have a light dinner and no breakfast, then go on a big ride then that's being in a fasted state. On that note, besides the research showing that training with carbs can hold you back in various aspects, the results also show that the best time to train is early in the morning (and in a fasted state). Reasons for this have a lot to do with hormones (natural testosterone and growth hormone levels, etc) plus the other benefits from being in a more fasted state when compared to any other time of the day. In other words, best to train before breakfast. And, where possible, avoid eating carbs for a couple of hours afterwards if you're not feeling too hungry and you haven't gone into full glycogen depletion. You can replenish your glycogen stores later in the day to be ready for the next morning. Some more on the subject: Here. And here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombeej Posted June 12, 2015 Share some insight as to why I posted this question. I have been on LCHF for 3 years now, lighter than I have ever been, and faster on the bike than I have ever been (first 6 months were terrible though, but once your body learns how to utilise an alternative energy source, wow), but im wanting to know if I train fuelled as opposed to fasted as I have been for the past 3 years, would this increase my performance during racing? I quite easily go out for a 3h30 to 4hr ride at 85%HR on only water, no issues. Race pace, 3 hours on water, if I need to push over 3 hours, BCAA's and caffeine. I want to know if I train on my amino acids and caffeine, will I race quicker? Again, the purpose of this is not to debate LCHF, glycogen utilisation etc, no matter what your diet, do you from a nutritional value mimic your racing routine / nutrition on training rides? So do you train using GU's, or is this race day only? Do you train using 'racefood' or is this race day only, and what do you think the benefits are of using these for training? Benefits:1. Significant increase in your body's ability to preserve its glycogen stores during strenuous exercise (because it's far more efficient at using its fat stores as its primary - and most preferred - source of fuel).2. Significant increase in your body's ability to burn body fat, thereby making you lighter and faster as a rider.3. Significant increase in your body's 60% VO2 and AT when compared against training on carbs. One study indicates an improvement in VO2 max, Peter Attia's LCHF study shows a slight decrease. But in both cases, there's a strong improvement in VO2 efficiency.4. Early morning training in a fasted state has an impact on hormones, such as improved insulin sensitivity, taking advantage of the fact that your natural levels of testosterone are highest early in the morning, improvements on natural levels of growth hormone, which has an effect on the body's ability to recover and rebuild from a training effort, etc. This is a start for now. More to come later. Edit: correction made in point 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stricker Posted June 12, 2015 Share Benefits:1. Significant increase in your body's ability to preserve its glycogen stores during strenuous exercise (because it's far more efficient at using its fat stores as its primary - and most preferred - source of fuel).2. Significant increase in your body's ability to burn body fat, thereby making you lighter and faster as a rider.3. Significant increase in your body's ability to increase VO2max and AT when compared against training on carbs.4. Early morning training in a fasted state has an impact on hormones, such as improved insulin sensitivity, taking advantage of the fact that your natural levels of testosterone are highest early in the morning, improvements on natural levels of growth hormone, which has an effect on the body's ability to recover and rebuild from a training effort, etc. This is a start for now. More to come late Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombeej Posted June 12, 2015 Share Another nice article - this time written by a former elite cyclist and now performance coach: http://jameshewitt.net/2014/07/23/periodize-your-nutrition-and-training/ "Whilst training in a low-carbohydrate state (i.e. not eating carbohydrate for a period of time before or during training) has gained a lot of publicity recently, it’s an approach which cyclists have adopted for generations. Anecdotes abound of professional cyclists riding for hundreds of kilometres on a double espresso alone. In addition, these rides have become popular amongst riders aiming to lose weight by creating an energy deficit in their diet." I remember reading an article about Alessandro Ballan heading off for a 5 hr morning training ride in the Alps with a bottle of water and nothing else. The benefits of training on water only and/or in a fasted state before breakfast have been known for a long time, and pretty much practised by all pro teams. And the research backs it up. On that note, back to Rule #91... Rule #91 // No Food On Training Rides Under Four Hours."This one also comes from the Apostle, Johan Museeuw, who said to @frank: “Yes, no food on rides under four hours. You need to lose some weight.” Or, as Fignon put it, sometimes, when we train, we simply have to go out to meet the Man with the Hammer. The exception is, of course, hard rides over two hours and races. Also, if you’re planning on being out for more than four hours, start eating before you get hungry. This also applies to energy drink supplements." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shebeen Posted June 12, 2015 Share i can't read all of this, but is fast slow or fast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catatonic_Joe Posted June 12, 2015 Share I also do most of my training in a semi-fasted state, usually have a banana/bowl of Futurelife about half-hour before my ride, and only ride with water. Most I've managed so far was a 3 hour ride at Thaba and a easy-medium pace. I'm usually buggered at the end though. For longer ride's/racing I have my usual energy drink and a salted baby potato every half-hour. Seems to work for me so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Hope Posted June 12, 2015 Share @tombeej, thanks for all of this, really appreciate it!!! Going to go through the links you've added it!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee_biker Posted June 12, 2015 Share Reading this thread I realized that all I do is fasted training (only water in the morning rides) the last couple of months... Been working for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombeej Posted June 12, 2015 Share A big disclaimer: as with anything, it takes time for the body to adapt to a training stimulus. So someone who has been only riding on water for many months will think a 3 hr ride on water is completely normal. But for someone who normally has a big carby breakfast before a ride, then has carb drinks in their bottles that they suck on the whole way - if they just decided to go out on a long early weekend ride with water only, they will come a cropper. Their body is expecting a solid stream of carbs to get their fuel from (i.e. the body's ability to tap its fuel stores for fuel is very diminished/dormant) and if that source is suddenly taken away without warning, they will bonk. It takes time for your body to become more and more efficient at using its fat stores as its primary source of fuel, and less and less reliant on its very precious glycogen stores. Give it time, don't rush it. Start on the shorter rides and build from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veebee Posted June 13, 2015 Share some great info here, thanks Tombeej Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veebee Posted August 12, 2015 Share so after following some advice here for weight loss, and training "properly" fasted in the mornings, and not eating any solids for about 2-3 hours after my morning ride, I have been successful in losing 3kg's in the last 10 days. probably just getting rid of the crap in my body but it still counts. 10 weeks to Shova and I hope to drop another 5-7kg in this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Hope Posted August 13, 2015 Share so after following some advice here for weight loss, and training "properly" fasted in the mornings, and not eating any solids for about 2-3 hours after my morning ride, I have been successful in losing 3kg's in the last 10 days. probably just getting rid of the crap in my body but it still counts. 10 weeks to Shova and I hope to drop another 5-7kg in this time.Awesome, hope it continues. Any negative performance effects noticeable or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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